Black Raven Dragoons

[Zancarius]

We've been tossing the idea around for a second ICC 10 for alts and anyone who couldn't make it for the Friday run. The reason for this is because our current interested player list is comprised (more or less) of the following characters which exceeds 10 people, though not all of these players are on consistently:

Avemmy*
Caelian**
Druleah**
Gnomegrenade
Highgrade**
Menacea**
Monopolize*
Ozmodium
Seakdeath**
Sinthea
Sunderheart**
Suziqs
Talvarie*
Thelena**

* Denotes characters that have known healing and/or tanking specs.
** Denotes characters that have alts with known healing and/or tanking specs.

Sinthea and Menacea have been out of the usual raiding cycle for about two weeks and were replaced by Gnomegrenade and Suziqs. Since we usually have more interest than spots, this implies that some people may have to sit out for the raid unless we either have no-shows or use a raffle system to determine attendance (first-come, first-serve via sign-ups might be the best option, so keep an eye out in the in-game calendar; if you miss it, you might not be able to come on Fridays).

The other idea is to shift those who cannot make it on Friday due to scheduling circumstances or too much interest in the raid itself to a second "alt" run. Of course, this alt run would face similar problems: 1) there are only 10 spots, so we cannot guarantee everyone will be able to come and 2) some of you may be able to bring alts and some of you might not. The objective of this second run will be to cover anyone who wasn't able to make Friday's run and to cover those who have other characters in need of reputation, gear, achievements, or what have you. Plus, I'm thinking of making this second run more "east coast friendly" by moving it to noon mountain (server) time or earlier. Incidentally, this would fit my own schedule better.

Here is a sample layout of both runs:

Friday Night:

Duran (Thelena)
Gnomegrenade
Katarsonia and/or Jargath
Killemal
Maquis (Highgrade)
McKeystone
Prizellama (Monopolize--bear in mind that Mono's schedule may not allow him to continue on Fridays, hence the move to Sunday)
Seakq
Suziqs
Urael and/or Deamen (depending on healing necessities)

Sunday Morning:

Druleah
Highgrade
Menacea
Monopolize
Seakdeath
Sinthea
Sunderheart
Talvarie
Thelena
+1 spot (probably Oz)

If the secondary run doesn't look like it's feasible, we may instead use it as a continuation run. However, there is a caveat if we raid resume on Sundays instead of starting fresh.

Raid Resuming

It isn't my intention to be overtly strict or otherwise imposing upon group composition, but I'll be frank: We can't do the Dreamwalker fight easily with the group composition we're currently using. I'm sure it's possible, but we're running into so many problems, it may be worthwhile to try this particular idea of mine at least once to see what we can improve. To be honest, I actually have absolutely no idea what we're doing wrong, but my observations lend me to believe that our DPS for the fight might be too low, party heals might not be potent enough, we may actually need a second tank, and our placement could potentially use a little work. The last time we tried this encounter, the blazing skeletons nearly wiped us twice (they should technically not even be allowed to get Lay Waste off), and various AoE sources have been killing party members (often the same people) repeatedly. Is it because we're too tired to continue after going through the first wing of ICC? Is it because not everyone has an alert addon like Deadly Boss Mods installed? Is it because we're having problems spotting specific mobs? Is it a lack of understanding of the fight mechanics? I don't know.

(Aside: This is to say nothing about the Putricide encounter. We can consistently get him into phase 2, but we're having a lot of problems with the slimes similar in nature to the problems we're encountering with VDW. Solving one fight might solve the tactical issues with the other.)

While VDW isn't difficult, it does require everyone to be on their A-game, and it is almost exclusively the responsibility of the healers with one exception--DPS has to be high and DPS must react quickly. Failure to react quickly will increase damage done to the party to the extent that the healer remaining outside of the portals won't be able to keep up and those that did go into the portals will have to shift their heals from the dragon to the party. That said, we've managed to get her to 10.1-10.5 million hit points before with 3 healers alone (Duran and I in the portals, Monopolize keeping the party up), but we also had our highest DPS available for that run. Thus, if we commit instead to a raid resume rather than a full secondary raid, I would like to try it with a specific group makeup--probably something like the following:

Thelena (tanking)
Jargath (tanking, if the second tank isn't needed, we may have him switch to DPS or Druleah for party heals)

Monopolize (healing, dragon)
Sunderheart (healing, probably party healing)
Talvarie (healing, dragon)

Highgrade (DPS)
Menacea (DPS)
Seakdeath (DPS)
Sinthea (DPS)
+1 DPS spot

Again, this is just another option in place of the Sunday raid (i.e. we can do either a full secondary raid or a raid resume). Both options would allow people to gain reputation with the Ashen Verdict, some gear, and some practice. However, a full secondary run would cover anyone who couldn't make the first to ensure we have maximum coverage of our guild mates while the raid resume would allow us to bring our heavy hitters along to determine whether the VDW fight is, in fact, due to the factors I've mentioned above. If we can get at least one successful VDW fight under our belts, we'll be able to figure out what works best for our group composition and transfer this knowledge to other raids.

I don't intend for either of these ideas to displace or otherwise muck with schedules that work best for certain people. I am aware that our east coasters have been asking for a better raiding schedule than Friday nights (and I also know that at least one of them in a critical role has mentioned he won't be able to keep attending on those nights!), so the secondary run idea might be the best opportunity for maximum coverage, and I'd like to be able to shift it toward a time frame that works best for the most people.

Thoughts?

[Highgrade]

sounds like a sound idea. However, i will not be able to attend a raid on Sunday mornings as I work Sundays. With this being said my other engagements at the moment also include Monday nights Tuesday nights and Thursday nights. Ah the life of an aspiring CS student..... kill me now this is only the second semester.

[Killemal]

I should be back into my normal raiding schedule beginning this week, and I would LOVE to get the heavy hitters into a dedicated progression run for two reasons: A) Finding working strats for the other Goon run might be easier with more experienced and possibly better geared players and B) Having the best possible chance at netting a LK kill for the Goons. Being that Sin is on that run (if it does indeed happen that way), Killemal would be slated as tentative on the other run, as I don't want to take up a slot that would be used for some other DPS that did not make it into the big progression run; if he's needed, he's ready.

Just because I like to play devil's advocate: What happens when one of our dedicated 'heavy hitters' cannot attend one week? I know I'll have visitors out east toward the end of October, and I might be out for a raid or two. Where are the players to fill that empty spot coming from? I don't want to offend anyone, but if the objective of the run is to continue forward towards a LK Kill, I'd rather we pull a ringer with the gear and more importantly the experience in the fights than even a guildie who may have not done their homework.

Black Raven Dragoons has been and will probably always continue to be a casual raiding guild, but with more and more members interested in seeing end-game content, I don't think it's a bad idea to reward the hard work and time spent gearing and learning content with slots on a more progression oriented team within the guild, with the final goal of everyone being able to experience the content that they want to see.

[Zancarius]

sounds like a sound idea. However, i will not be able to attend a raid on Sunday mornings as I work Sundays. With this being said my other engagements at the moment also include Monday nights Tuesday nights and Thursday nights. Ah the life of an aspiring CS student..... kill me now this is only the second semester.

That's not a problem. Turus wants to get Thelena in on a run, and I'd like to have his tank available as well, so Sundays are the best option. An earlier run is also more accommodating to our east coast crowd.

Black Raven Dragoons has been and will probably always continue to be a casual raiding guild, but with more and more members interested in seeing end-game content, I don't think it's a bad idea to reward the hard work and time spent gearing and learning content with slots on a more progression oriented team within the guild, with the final goal of everyone being able to experience the content that they want to see.

Normally, I'd hate to use the term "progression group," but I'm seeing this sentiment echoed more and more. I also tend to have to agree with it. Furthermore, I'm afraid that the only way we're going to actually get into later content is to take our more heavily geared players forward into either a continuation run or an alternate run.

That said, I would love for us to maintain at least two separate runs into ICC because the interest really is there. We have more and more people logging on during raid times and fewer spots available. Not everyone will be served with a single run, and since Fridays are our busiest nights, that should probably be saved for the vast majority of people who would like to come so we can get them covered first. A continuation or progression run could always be scheduled during the weekend sometime (but since one of our tanks works Saturdays, Sunday will probably be our only option unless we went late Saturday evening).

Fillers will probably have to be obtained from the SGA. I'd hate to PuG one in at random, but if we do PuG someone in out of guild and out of SGA, we'll lay ground rules out that basically state in no uncertain terms that they'll be booted if they get out of line or otherwise screw with the raid. There are some individuals Turus knows from the SGA (specifically R O N I N) who are highly skilled players and would be happy to come along. Frankly, I'd feel more comfortable with people pulled in from R O N I N because I've played along side some of their characters and they're predictable, consistent, and competent. Not to disparage the SGA, of course, it's just that I've not had the opportunity to examine the play styles and characteristics of more than a few SGA guilds. It's also important that any fillers or permanent individuals from outside of guild are also goal-compatible with us. I don't want to have to censor TS chat or raid chat because of anyone in particular since that's just not what we do. Oz and his friends would be a great choice since everyone from his guild whom I've had the opportunity to play with (Oz included, of course) have an awesome sense of humor. Plus, I'd really like to establish some sort of permanent role for Oz since he's been kind enough to fill in on several of our runs--often on very short notice.

And it's important for me to note that the goons are a Certified Free Speech Zone.

[Tirian]

I can't attend Friday or Saturday night raids at all regularly, as ya'll know already. A Sunday morning raid sounds AWESOME.

That said, for the moment, I would have to request to be on sub status for the Sunday morning run anyway. I won't bore you all with the details, just suffice to say that I'm in hot water at work right now and will be a little inconsistent in attendance until I pull my ass* out of the frying pan. I've got about 100 pages to write in 2-3 weeks.

* Protected by the Goon Certified Free Speech Zone (chicken wire included).

[Zancarius]

Turus and I shared a discussion about Killem's idea for having a separate "progression run," and I believe such a thing would be compatible with our goals as a guild. I don't mean to steal his thunder since I'm sure he'll be eager to weigh in whenever he gets a chance, so you'll probably want to come back and read his post. My inane ramblings only get so far before they cause people to faceplant on their desk and start sawing logs. (I know you nearly had an aneurysm after glancing at the length of this post. Don't lie.)

The basic premise that we've been discussing (the "we" in this context being Sunder, Killem, Turus, Tirian (Caelian for those who didn't know him before the name change), and I) is that the majority of our Friday night characters are in little need of gear from the early part of ICC10. Sure, some of us may have particular needs for specific infrequent drops or reputation--reputation probably being the dominant need. Many of these characters are generally overgeared for the early encounters, and I think we're all chomping at the bit to give the later encounters more practice runs. However, we also have a significant number of players in guild who are in need of gear and reputation from the first wing of ICC, and we've discussed that it's largely unfair to them to use their raid ID for a continuation run. This means you can discard my comments about a continuation run in the original post. We're not going to do that.

Continuation runs have been mentioned before by various SGA guilds and are often met with mixed response. One school of thought--predominantly of those involved in the continuation--suggests that there's nothing wrong with it. They've done the work to get to where they are in terms of gear and experience, so they feel they're entitled to reap the benefits of their hard labor, sleepless nights, and borderline insomnia. The other school of thought--predominantly those who are doing the work to get that particular raid ID to the point where it can be continued by the continuation team--sees it as an unfair method of taking advantage of their labors. I don't want us to be that guild. We're a team, after all, and I think continuation runs are more likely to cause unnecessary tensions. Think about it: How would you feel if someone took your raid ID--the one you spent 3 hours of your time on--and used it to speed through the remaining wings to kill the Lich King?

Turus proposed a much better idea: Create a second run comprised of the characters that do not need gear from the first half of ICC, speed through the content, and use a separate raid ID from which to resume each week until we can get the encounters down. This approach has two advantages: 1) we'd be using separate raid IDs, so there'd be no contention with resuming off of someone else's hard work and 2) we can raid resume this secondary ID as often as we like until we finally succeed in achieving our goals. Several SGA guilds have been using this approach successfully, so I see absolutely no idea why we can't do the same thing. Furthermore, this gives our lesser geared players the time, experience, and practice they need to gear up so they, too, can enjoy the later content. Plus, if we can get to the point where we're able to consistently get to the Lich King (hopefully killing him), we should be able to sacrifice at least one spot a week for individuals who are in need of the achievement.

I want to be very clear on this point: This is just another run in the same guild with the same players you've come to know and love (or not). The intention isn't to exclude anyone. We're discussing solutions for an up-and-coming problem related to the growing pains every guild experiences and would like to try our best to limit the number of people who are excluded from our end-game casual raiding. We can't eliminate it--no one can--because there'll always be more players than spots (this happens in sports, too), and you'll have to be patient while we come up with a system that's both fair and accommodating to the greatest number of people. We're not sure what scheduling system we're going to use, but I suspect it'll have something to do with the in-game calendar. You can access this calendar by clicking the date in the little circle up by your minimap.

Additionally, putting together a "progression run" is probably more fair to those of you who haven't had a chance to gear or raid as much as the rest of us have. Why? Because it splits out those of us who are just taking up spots. We don't need the gear, and because we have such a great interest in ICC10 progression, we're running into the circumstance where we have several players who need the gear or experience mixed together with those who don't. It really isn't fair to those of you who are still gearing. This way, we can extract the players who don't need gear from the first half of ICC and place them into another run where they won't be consuming spots that our newer players could take advantage of. Plus, no one will be stressed out with the need to show up as early as possible on Friday nights in the hopes to snag a spot in the raid. Basically, if you really need the gear and the practice, show up on Fridays around 6:00PM server time, and you'll be getting a spot.

That said, the rules for the "progression run" will be somewhat stricter. We'll only be accepting those characters that have been regulars on Sunder's run for as long as he's been running it and have probably seen the first half of ICC more times than they care to admit. This means it won't be as much an "alt" run as it will be a "mains-only" run. We don't use gearscore in this guild, and we believe that experience trumps gear; thus, it'll be necessary for us to tap our most skilled players for this mains-only run. It's important to understand that a "progression run" is a vastly different beast from a gearing run. We're not going to be focused on dropping bosses for loot--though that's never been our goal--and we're probably going to wipe a few times. Repair bills will be high, so you'll need to come prepared to expect that. If there's something you need from the first half of ICC, though, then you should probably stick with the Friday night gearing run. You're not going to find it on Sundays.

Also, since we've picked up quite a few new people over the months, I'd like to take the time to point out something that isn't codified in any of the 'goon handbooks (not that we have any), and it's something that's been the source of a few minor issues in the past with regards to running 5- and 10-man content. We're a meritocracy. That means that the more familiar everyone is with you the more likely they're going to be to ask you for help, drag you along on various runs, and generally be a good friend/accomplice/partner in crime with you regardless of your adventures. Case in point: Seak's been with the guild for about a year or so now, and regardless of his short tenure, everybody knows him because he communicates, asks questions, offers probably more help than is otherwise healthy, gives advice, keeps everyone laughing, and tries his hardest to do what he can for you, the guild mate. Seak got where he is because of motivation and persistence (and quite a bit of poking and prodding from our guild trainer, warden, and certifiably insane motorcyclist, Sunderheart). Since we're not exactly the sort of guild that does everything in a highly deterministic, predictable fashion, if you feel you're not getting the kind of response you'd like--talk! Ask questions! Do something! It's entirely unrelated to the ICC post, but because I know that someone is going to say that they feel they're on the wrong run, remember: It takes time to get to know each other, how everyone's play style and general in-game behavior differs, and other social aspects. Likewise, if you've come from a raiding guild but don't have a lot of experience raiding with us, you'll have to be patient; we don't really have waiting lists, we don't have standbys, and we don't have a lot of the bureaucratic nonsense that causes a lot of guilds to seem like a second job (you did get those TPS reports, didn't you?). Things work a little different here, and I hope you'll be happier as a result. That's also why we're trying very hard to make sure that we can get everyone covered with their ICC raid fix. We may not be able to deliver it straight to the vein, but we'll get it as close as possible.

[header=3]TL;DR[/header]

We're looking into making the Friday night run a gearing run. If you need gear, emblems, or just plain old reputation, you'll need to sign up or send Sunder a tell and be available from 6:00PM server time (mountain) to about 9:00PM on Friday evenings. Sunder doesn't go beyond the 9:00 mark, so if you're concerned about a lengthy raid, don't be!

We'll be putting together a second run to progress as far into ICC as possible tentatively starting Sunday mornings somewhere between 10:00AM and 11:00AM and running for about 3 hours depending on our success. These runs will NOT be the run you want to join if you need gear, though special exceptions may be made for individuals who just have to have a particular item or for any other circumstances that might benefit the raid (achievements come to mind, and we might even force-wipe if we fail one). The "progression run" will be a bit pickier about who can come along, so we'll be starting it with our ultra high DPS and well-skilled players. Expect to wipe, and expect to wipe frequently. The latter wings aren't a walk in the park--they're not difficult, but you shouldn't expect us to one-shot everything in sight--and we're going to defeat each and every encounter until we have them down like clockwork. Remember: Festergut gave us a pretty nasty time, and after two separate raids, we finally got him down. I expect the other encounters to behave approximately the same way.

Also, you should have Deadly Boss Mods installed. It's a small download, just a hair under 1.3KB, and helps greatly with avoiding boss mechanics during specific encounters. It doesn't matter if you're a tank, a healer, or DPS--you need to have this. If you don't have DBM installed, we won't be able to bring you for the progression run. DBM isn't a resource hog, and if you need help configuring it, there are several gurus in guild who'd be happy to help. Simply put, though, we're adding this requirement because it greatly reduces the chances players will zone out and stand in something they shouldn't be. Since this is a pretty persistent problem, we believe DBM is the best solution. Of course, you won't need to have DBM installed for the gearing run on Fridays, but it'd be an excellent time to test it out and get used to the warnings it yields. You'll need it for later boss fights.

Also, Sunder's gearing run and Sunder's progression run (I'm volunteering him to direct both, whether he likes it or not--just 'cause this is my post doesn't mean I'm in charge since I've heard this idea echoed from far too many sources to take credit) have identical goals: Get as far as you can into ICC after 3 hours--then stop. That's it. We're not going to make you split rocks for 12 hours a day, every day, for a month. Oh, and have fun. We're all about fun.

But you'll have to leave your pants at the door.

[MaxRile]

Oh damn =< you lucky this hospital has wifi lol. Or I would have missed this >.< but I would be honored to lead a porgression team into icc but There are limits this and once I think of them I'll edit this post and let yea know but till then I will be fun but strick

[Menacea]

I've got my pewpew honed. You know I love smashing my face into a boss for weeks on end till I get a kill.

My druid will be open on Fridays for tanking if im on. I'm always willing to help out!

[Gnomegrenade]

I'm available on either night (friday, saturday or sunday) and do prefer to be with Suzi on the run...afterall...we're married in RL and it makes things easier on us.

We are, however, keeping a watchful eye on Hurricane Earl which is projected to get a little close to us here in Va Beach. The last time we had a hurricane of this magnitude (Isabelle-2003) we went without power for 10 days. But it's not due to be in our area until late thursday night/friday morning so we'll see. Hopefully this low pressure system moving thru keeps it off the coast.

But Suzi and I do have alts. I do have Aalammer, my prot/fury warrior which I'm hoping to get into the guild soon. I've already passed GM over to Littlemissy (my holy pally) so it's just a matter of me /guildquit and join up. Suzi has toons which may be destined to come over. Stay tuned.

[Grimblast]

Now that my busy life has slowed down again, good job on downing Putricide in one go and finally healing up Dreamwalker! It was a very fun trip in there. We will be raid resuming this coming Sunday and I have reinvited everyone that was there last time. I'll work on substitute invites when I get a chance.

We will be hitting the Blood Princes and the Blood Queen as well as Sindragosa if we have time. Make sure to do your homework since it does help to study up on some of the fight mechanics. We were getting better at the Princes as we kept going at them so I'm thinking this Sunday we should have them down and have plenty of time to fool with the last 2 bosses before the Lich King. I do have a sticky thread here that has info on the boss encounters as well as videos.