Black Raven Dragoons

[DeathAndTaxes]

I was in a PUG yesterday and one of the people in the group told me about the "Small Guild Alliance". The idea is that smaller guilds (like ourselves, while we have a bunch of members, we have only a handful of 60's) have a chat channel and a website where they can combine their efforts and find PUGs with decent people who have a similar goal and commitment level.

We all know the goons is a casual guild. We don't discriminate against anybody except jerks. However, at any given time, you'd be hard-pressed to see more than a dozen of us on. Many of our guild population are alts as well.

This SGA seems to be something specific to Terenas, though I'm sure there are other similar organizations on other servers. I've looked over their FAQ and forums, and like I said, I have chatted with someone who has had a positive experience with SGA overall.

The SGA is NOT a guild, and our membership is dependent on the guild officers' decision to join. If you think joining the SGA is a good idea, post here and/or let your officers know!

Check it out for yourselves:

http://www.alliancesga.com/wwc/default.asp

[Zancarius]

This is a good idea. It needs to be looked into, and I'm sure (depending on how some of the end-game instances are run and by whom) it'll be acceptable.

I've been thinking about this for a short while since you mentioned it, Death, in the context of the creation of Redemption from what was previously a PUG for MC and Onyxia. Considering all class spots appear to be filled, I highly doubt that the Puggers option is going to be open much longer (if at all). I don't want to join a raiding guild in order to see end-game content--that's not an option in my mind--and it seems that, once again, the option to PUG the end-game has been closed. Perhaps the SGA will be the next best choice. I'd rather enjoy the end-game within the confines of small guilds banding together than to commit to it as a raiding guild. Besides, the Terenas raiding guilds have seen relatively short life spans as of late and small guilds seem to be the only consistent, long-term option if you wish to enjoy the game amongst friends.

I think the timing of your post is rather ironic. We're in a phase where we can't really go anywhere without either heavy recruiting or changing our fundamental principles. I don't see the 'goons transitioning away from a casual guild, so perhaps an alliance of guilds is the next best option. I'm liking it more and more since Puggers is now essentially defunct.

[Snobal]

I've brought this up in the past to a few members. The only thing was is that it worked off of DKP. Personally I dont agree with the system, but if
its for the better for the guild, you know im all for it.

[DeathAndTaxes]

There is no mention of DKP anywhere on their site. While some raid leaders might insist on using DKP for their individual raids, there's nothing preventing one of us from organizing a raid that doesn't use DKP. For my purposes, even if we don't do the large raids with the SGA, having another channel to find decent PUG members for even small instances is enough of an attraction for me.

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hs= ... tnG=Search

[Aigle]

Some of you might recall the one time (literally, and there will only ever be, one time) I ran MC with a good portion of the people involved in SGA. The run was pretty sucessfull mind you, and when it came down to loot, it was pretty well fair.

However, when it came to downing one of the bosses, and priest gear dropped it took a bit of a turn. It was not class specific, but it definetly benifited a priest. Keeping in mind, that I don't raid, and don't have the passion to. I didn't go to get loot, was there plainly to help a friend out (they needed healers, badly). Casually rolling, I won the two epic pieces that dropped. I'll tell you this, I never had so much smack spoken in whisper to me in my entire warcraft experience save that night. It made me feel horrible, and I nearly melted the pieces because of what was said to me. How I wasn't apart of SGA, and that I didn't deserve the items.

Just keeping in mind, that yes, they do not have a DKP system, but it is still looked at for raiding purposes. Personal preference is up to you guys =)

My two cents worth.

[Anahri]

Aigle:
I find it best to ignore Asshats like that. If you were there on the run, and participating - being a priest, I'm sure you were clicking your butt off - then you are always entitled to a shot at the drops. Don't ever let anyone tell you different.
The #1 flaw in this game is that it requires interaction with other "human beings". And most of them are just insane when they see the Color Purple. The movie caused drama and stress in society....and it continues here.
I'm sure they all felt "entitled" and "worthy" of being healed....
I'm just sorry that their F'd up attitude ruined your first experience in MC.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I have perused the forums for the SGA and there have been several reports of members of the SGA's guilds being very rude. However, there has been across-the-board condemnation of this attitude. I'm sure every guild has people who are rude like this. I agree with Anahri, if you participated in dropping the boss, you participate in grabbing the loot. As long as you followed their loot rules, then there shouldn't be a problem.

The main thing to remember about the SGA is that there is no attendance requirements. If you don't want to participate, you do not have to. However, for those of us trying to find obscure items in unpopular instances, and are having a hell of a time getting a group together, providing us with legit access to the sga channel is attractive.

[Grimblast]

I know Snobal had mentioned the SGA to me before and I was considering them until I heard from some members that they used DKP. I guess from what I'm finding out now is that they don't all use DKP and try to work together and use the basic loot rules just like ours.

I'm up for signing us up and see what happens. We won't lose anything if it doesn't work out since there is no fee of some kind involved.

Also, I remember that Aigle. You played by their loot rules and you deserved the gear. I know since then some guilds may have been kicked from their alliance. They do try to keep some standards in place at least. I think we have to wait for them to consider our app when they do a meeting.

If yall are cool with it, I can fill out the application and we can see what happens. If it doesn't work out, it wont hurt us at all. It just gives us the option to hit more instances than we usually do and there is no attendance requirement.

[Zancarius]

I was initially against the decision like Turus and for the same reason. I suppose the loot systems have actually changed somewhat (or it wasn't particularly clear). I don't like to raid, as you can tell by my gear and the age of my character, though it is a nice change. We can discount the Puggers at this point as a short-lived venture designed as a form of recruitment, so the spirit of the SGA is something I am much more inclined to appreciate.

I think we should give it a try; worst that can happen is they don't accept us or we don't enjoy the raids. Plus, it would give us a chance to run UBRS more frequently, and remember how smoothly the mostly-goons UBRS run went. No wipes, few deaths, and it was done in about two hours. We can easily pull a 5-man group every evening, sometimes up to 8--filling the last few spots seems to be a pain. Maybe this is the venue we were looking for.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I also managed to find a mention of DKP...Listed under their official runs, there *are* some runs listed that use DKP or something very similar...However, there are also some runs with friendly roll loot rules.

[Snobal]

Ok, to start on the negative side (and I do remmember) what SGA did to Aigle was terrible. Shortly after this had all gone down I remmember SGA
suddenly loosing members of their alliance. I figured out that they had all gone to TGA (Terenas Guild Alliance). I dont know if this will factor in on
whether or not Turus will fill out the App. I just figured I would let you all know.


Know on the positive side, what do we have to loose? If we dont like it seem to run into problems that we cant deal with, we could just drop out.
So finally getting to my oppinion. I think you should fill out an app Turus.


There is my vote (as Aigle would say 'my two cents worth) <3 you Aigle.

[Grimblast]

I've been thinking more about it and there really isn't anything bad with the SGA. We don't have to go on the runs with the dkp raid leaders. I could register as a leader and we could stick to our plain jane loot rules that have worked for a long time. With the puggers and rejectedspug we know that the loot rules work and aren't bickered over. They are fair and everyone gets a fair chance at loot. No strange number crunching or favoritism.

I will be trying to pull off an officer meeting today and hear any concerns they may have but so far it looks like everyone seems to be up for signing up for the SGA. I know with the holidays creeping up that some members may not be able to be online as much as they used to so it wouldn't hurt to have another channel that we can get people to pug into runs that we start or others start.

[Zancarius]

DKP has always been a concern for me as it favors those who have nothing better to do than run raids every... freaking... hour... I'd rather enjoy the fact that the game doesn't constrain your style of play to one specific school of thought.

DKP is seen by some to be more "fair" because those who spend the time are rewarded first; those who don't are rewarded last. I find this view to be rather inverted: those who are on the raid should be rewarded before those who have accumulated the most--what I call ICP--or Imaginary Crybaby Points. It isn't fair for someone to pop in halfway through a run, bid a few dozen points on an item, and still win it in spite of those who have been working their tails off the whole instance. That is what makes DKP fundamentally unfair in my mind, not to mention the other crimes it encourages: druids rolling on BOE warlock gear, BOPs getting melted because the only people who need it don't have the points to roll...

We will have to make some modifications to our system for raids. Specifically you have to attend a specific percentage of the raid to have the right to roll. You can't roll on items that won't benefit your class unless the classes that could use that item have better or don't want it. If you win one epic, you can't roll on any others for the rest of that run.

Now, this is off-topic, but I have heard that SA has essentially disappeared. I'm not inclined to say why, but an old in-game friend of Turus and I, LiquidLight, is setting up a guild. He's looking at having some alliances with smaller guilds, which would include us. This is pretty good timing in retrospect. Perhaps we could set up a GoonPUG channel of sorts...

The idea of PUGs isn't that bad if the composite members are all working toward the same goal, are experienced players, and are part of smaller guilds. It's done marvelous before, I don't see why we can try something in the interim while we're waiting for SGA. In fact, if you guys give me the go-ahead, I'd be more than happy to spearhead it.

[cherry1]

woohoo Naxx here i come. . . oh wait nevermind i cant even solo Dead Mines Yet. Sorry carry on.

[Grimblast]

After our officer meeting last night, I have started the application process for the SGA. I will have to answer questions in game with them to complete the application and then wait for their meeting which may be a ways off. In the mean time the goonspug channel is a great idea and we should pursue that as well. Never hurts to have several avenues to work with