Black Raven Dragoons

[Tirian]

This is interesting. /discuss

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 0666&sid=1

Would especially be interested in warrior input.

[Onasha]

wow i mean they do prove good points with the lock nerfs coming up like mana tap and such aftern't needed i think (but then again i dont have a caster so i dont the finer points to that one) really the fear needed to be worked on with its returns and it last 10 secs isnt really fair to melee for kiting, nice to know that melee is getting buffed it will be nice to beat on some colthes still and i really cant believe they havent nerfed wars i mean they r OPed in pvp and even other melee DPS (like myself) will telll u this because getting crited for 5k while stuned and then not being able to run either because of hamstring or a second intercept really sucks. O and on a side note after a while ull notice all the post r from lock players it kinda turned into a lock pity party after a while lol.

[Tirian]

1) I'm not quite sure I follow. Basically you're telling me you're glad that rogues will be even more OP against casters because of greater melee DPS scaling?
2) Fear has already been mitigated almost out of usefulness against any good melee DPS player by talents, trinkets, etc. As Thal put it to me a few weeks ago, "Really, any good warrior should be able to get out of fear and any good warlock should know that."
3) Well, all class forums turn into pity parties when there's nerf talk or they're feeling UP for any reason. Just look in the shaman forums post-BC.

[Onasha]

im only joking about the rogue buff there only for i think assassin spec which im not and after the CloS goes on CD or the trinket goes on CD fears r just a pain in the ass since after ur hit with one u cant break u can be fear locked for quite a good amount of time. Yea i do see locks r getting a rough nerf but really it seems like blizz has something in mind i mean if it really does turn into a cripple of the class with in a few weeks a minor patch may be released to help bring the power back.

[Zancarius]

The thread reads as a QQ session in spite of the poster playing a warrior. I've played both in PvP (though I've not touched my warlock for a long time, and never in the arena--obviously). My guesses are such that he probably neglects a few things that I should think any warrior knows: exploit the dead zone.

What's the dead zone? It's that area in front of a warrior that's out of range of his or her melee attacks but too near to use intercept.

So, how do you beat a warrior as a warlock? The easiest way is to have curse of exhaustion (amplify curse helps here, too). Pop that on the warrior, kite the warrior around with full DoTs, and the warrior is just simply going to die. I've had this happen to me more than once by skilled affliction warlocks. When I'd back up trying to get range for intercept, the warlock would come closer; when I'd attempt to approach the warlock, the warlock would run away. Sounds to me like someone must've rolled a warlock alt and is griping because it's not wearing "lulz pl8." Lots of exclusively melee players have this problem, IMO. I certainly know I did! (I think it can also be tied in to why those who play casters initially have trouble playing melee, too, except for the opposite reasons.)

And what do we get in 2.4? MORE armor penetration gear, MORE melee weapons that scale much faster than cloth survivability gear, and MORE buffs to physical DPS talents. Armor penetration should never have been added in the first place. Something needs to be done to reduce the effectiveness of armor reducing effects and stats against low armor targets. If you're going to make melee practically unkiteable in this game (hello, 15s CD intercept), at least make it so we can take a hit from them.

This is an interesting point he raises with one exception: 5 sunders stacked on a cloth target will usually mean that target has zero armor to begin with. Armor penetration is a moot point and is mostly useful against leather and mail (its usefulness diminishes against plate simply because plate wearers tend to have at least twice the armor potential of mail, including a shield). Plus, since it's impossible to have "negative armor," the notion that armor penetration should never have been added is a bit silly. Resilience is far more of a worse change than armor penetration, and I would wager that armor pen. is probably added partially to provide PvP warriors with viability in PvE, since it's impossible to acquire decent DPS plate gear until SSC or later. (Yes, that's right; T4 is a joke for DPS warriors, IMO. Season 2 gear and up is far superior.)

My assumption that the OP was just flat-out griping didn't fully surface until I read this part:

This is not to mention the effect of abilities like Sunder Armor and Expose Armor on low armor targets in PvP. For an investment in GCD's and rage or 5 combo points, you can increase most physical damage done to a low armor target by 20-30% with an unremovable, 30 second duration debuff. This is ridiculous. It's like the debuff form of Death Wish, except it stacks with Death Wish.

Now he's griping about sunder? This is something that's been in the game since, oh, BETA! Same for expose armor. Sounds to me like someone's a bit bitter... AND he's playing a warrior? (Or is he? It's possible it's not his account; anyone can say anything on the Intertubes.)

Another pretty stupid point:

And what do we get in 2.4? MORE armor penetration gear, MORE melee weapons that scale much faster than cloth survivability gear, and MORE buffs to physical DPS talents. Armor penetration should never have been added in the first place. Something needs to be done to reduce the effectiveness of armor reducing effects and stats against low armor targets. If you're going to make melee practically unkiteable in this game (hello, 15s CD intercept), at least make it so we can take a hit from them.

Pre-BC, PvP was exactly the same. Warriors could 1-2 shot cloth. Rogues could 1-2 shot cloth (ambush much?). But if a caster got the jump on either, both melee classes were virtually dead. Before Cloak of Shadows, if a rogue were busted from stealth by a caster, there was literally no escape. I used to play my warlock heavily in PvP pre-BC and guess what? It hasn't changed much. I'd save death coil for warriors who would get close (since you can't fear them, ideally), pop it, and burn them down with conflagrate/shadowburn/etc., since I was destro-spec'd.

My guess is that his experience with a warlock is that he's probably not affliction spec'd, since he claims earlier in the article that Blizzard doesn't do enough to help affliction out and seems to imply that it's a gimp spec. If he thinks that, he seriously needs to re-evaluate his points about warlocks, because affliction warlocks have by far the easiest time kiting a warrior. Yes, it takes more skill than kiting with a frost mage (kiting is passive here), but it can be done.

The ending rant about strategy is a little comical. WoW PvP has never been much about strategy as much as it is about having 1) healers, 2) better gear than the opponent. Balance is a stupid thing to complain about in a game where there are far too many factors to even consider balance. Gear, 8 different classes to pick from, 3 talent trees per class with varying viability in PvP...

My analysis is that the thread is interesting, but it was probably written by someone who is far more skilled with his warrior than his caster.

[Snobal]

Sounds to me like someone wants to be able to roll their face on the keyboard and defeat every class, spec, or what have you...