Black Raven Dragoons

[Zancarius]

Warning: I'm going to step on a few toes with this one because of my stance on the Second Amendment and my perpetual irritation with government intrusion on those grounds. I have nothing against those who disagree even if I think you're wrong.

Anyway, I guess it was bound to happen soon or later, but Obama is expected to sign an executive order banning the sale of surplus 5.56 under the guise of police safety because of its "armor-penetrating capabilities."

Well, I hate to point it out to him, but most rifle cartridges are considered to armor-penetrating because of projectile weight and velocity. This all started on or around the 15th of this month when the ATF (well, BATFE, or whatever their flavor-of-the-month acronym happens to be) decided that certain 5.56 rounds had no use in hunting or sporting. I think that's wrong, because a large number of competitive shooters have been acquiring the 5.56 surplus because it's cheaper. Supposedly, the ATF had established an open comment period until March 15th for the public to weigh in. I guess the President didn't get the memo...

While I'm disappointed about this, I'm not overly upset. I only have one rifle chambered for .223, and I don't make it a habit to buy surplus ammunition. I do think this is overreaching and unnecessary; if you want to protect police the police force, you probably ought to 1) stop militarizing them and 2) stop demonizing them (or fire Al Sharpton... that would do more good than banning anything that goes "bang"). What does worry me is that this demonstrates the president's "prosecutorial discretion" may be sufficiently misguided that his office believes they can use this to ban other types of ammunition, depending on the ATF's recommendations.

Incidentally, according to the FBI's own statistics, out of the 13,000 or so annual gun-related deaths in the US, only about 700 are the result of rifles, and most of those are from accidental discharges or hunting accidents. AR-15s account for surprisingly few considering the platform's popularity. But hey, who needs statistics when you have emotion?

For the uninitiated, 5.56 is the same as .223--to an extent. 5.56 being a standardized NATO round is describe in terms of metric measurements, and so the cartridge parameters are slightly different. 5.56 brass is usually a bit thicker than .223 and NATO requires the pressures to be somewhat higher in order to obtain the needed velocities. Generally, both rounds are interchangeable, though you should always be cautious and be aware of the differences.

[Jargath]

(or fire Al Sharpton... that would do more good than banning anything that goes "bang").

We could hope for this to happen ...

[Zancarius]

I love that one!

[MaxRile]

Even the ATF removed it from there AP list.

It seems the steel Core was to give it weight to combat issues for the and SAW (M249) over longer ranges.

[Zancarius]

ahaha I hadn't realized the ATF actually removed it. That's rich...

Here's what gets me. Steel's density (7850 kg/cubic meter) [1] is quite a bit lower than lead's (11340 kg/cubic meter) [2], but I could see the use of steel since it retains its shape better since lead is so soft. Lead is always going to be heavier, though, for a given projectile size, and the DoD dropped production of the M855 completely because of its relative ineffectiveness for its design criteria. If it's true that the long-range flight characteristics were really the only good reason for the projectile's design, that should just reinforce its usefulness in sporting.

I'm reminded of this video where Matt [3] from Demolition Ranch shoots 60-90 green tips at an AR500 chest piece before two of them finally punch through...

Apparently the ATF had to dig up an extremely obscure ruling in 1986 in order to locate something that could be used as the framework for a pending executive order involving a rare "pistol" that could shoot 5.56 ammunition. The only problem is that this "pistol" weighs around 6 pounds and is 24 inches long...

(Note that they didn't use the Thompson Center as illustrative for their case because the last time they took Thompson to court, the ATF lost.)

[1] Minecraft is so unrealistic. Imagine a cubic meter of steel in your pants!

[2] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal ... -d_50.html

[3] Everyone I know of whose name is "Matt" is hilariously crazy and often educational. While we're on that topic, I have the perfect video for you, Matt (as in Sunder).

[Elade]

Let's go ahead and ban all the things that make us angry! Like using chimpanzees for research. Never mind that they're fed and housed better than most humans on this planet and probably get better health care. OH and the fact that we can only study certain human-related physiological processes in them cause they're our evolutionary brothers. Goodbye and good riddance to you, Hepatitis B research! BURN IN HELL!

TL;DR: Need more government intervention to save us from our sinful ways.

[Zancarius]

Hey, without warning labels like "CAUTION: CONTENTS ARE HOT WHEN HEATED" or "WARNING: CONTAINS FLAMMABLE GAS. MAY CAUSE SERIOUS BURNS, INJURY, OR DEATH" who then would keep us safe?!

Joking aside, it's true; we're reaching a point where nearly everything is subject to some sort of ban threats or various bits of regulation for our safety. Fortunately, most such threats never quite make it due to inadequate funding or public opposition. On the other hand, OSHA regulations are such that if you so much as sneeze in the wrong place, your employer might potentially face steep penalties for operating an unsafe workplace. Go figure.

Slight rant ahead, continuing from earlier...

In the case of the ATF ban, I think the entire notion is horribly disingenuous, because it's neither going to keep law enforcement safer nor is it going to solve any of the underlying problems that lead to violent crime (which is an essay in its own right). The increasing anti-law enforcement sentiment in communities nationwide is far more dangerous to officers' lives than a caliber that's so rarely used in violent crime it's almost statistically insignificant. But, on the other hand, you also have an increasing militarization of police forces and departments that have adopted unconstitutional search policies...

Coincidentally, the most famous incident involving the .223 didn't include the use of an AR-15, which is one of the guns the ATF apparently intends to affect with this ban since so many such owners have been buying M855 surplus. Nay, instead the 1986 "Miami Shootout" involved a Ruger Mini-14, which most people ignore since the "ranch rifle" model looks--wait for it--like a ranch rifle. There's something about those "tactical black" colored guns sends specific 3-letter agencies into a tizzy. Oh, and the shooters were using standard ball ammunition--none of this "armor penetrating" rubbish.

No "assault rifle." No "armor penetrating" munitions. 2 dead officers.

The astute reader might note that the problem wasn't the rifles per se as much as the armor and the latter's intended use. Level 2 body armor won't stop rifle caliber rounds. Period. Well, okay, .22LR even in a rifle would likely be stopped, but L2 armor is designed to stop pistol calibers under the theory that most violent encounters involve pistol calibers (and statistically, that's a fairly sound argument). Of course, as soon as you hit rifle velocities, it's an entirely different story and L2 armor may as well not exist. So, from that perspective, I suppose you could call anything with magnum velocities "armor piercing" if your definition is loose enough!

Trivia: The 1986 Miami Shootout was the catalyst that also lead most law enforcement agencies to adopt and standardize on the .40S&W due to the relative ineffectiveness of the .38 special in a revolver, as several of the agents were using at that time, and arguably also the 9mm.

[MaxRile]

=(

[Zancarius]

Is that a Hi-Point? Gosh those things really are ugly. Although they're supposedly fairly durable, even if they have feeding problems (I'll dig up a link to the torture test). (Actually retails for about $200.)

One thing I'd suggest though is that both of those are evil because they're in "Tacticool Black." This is obviously a varmint gun, because it looks benign.

Incidentally, if you trawl through the FBI statistics, about 5% or fewer of all gun-related deaths in the US are attributable to rifles, and most of those are hunting-related or accidental deaths.